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ptypes
Member
5726 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 2:05:34 PM
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I've always dissented from the Enneagram convention of typing Edgar Allan Poe a 4w5 or 4. He's always seemed to me to be a very noteworthy example of the Inventive 3w4. Most 4s would disown him, I think, if they became more aware of the extremely analytical and pragmatic approach Poe took to artistic creation. He was mostly interested in the power of art and its effects rather than in an appreciation of beauty.
I've been studying Gary Lindberg's (48-69) chapter on Poe, "Poe's Credentials: The Confidence Man as New World Artist," in which he characterizes Poe as a "cold-blooded mechanician."
"To say that Poe is a cold-blooded mechanician is not so much false as incomplete. He sets about to demonstrate that the most ludicrous incidents, the tritest details can produce effects that override commons sense and skepticism, His subject is the formula that works too well. "The Fall of the House of Usher," for instance, reads as if it had been written to recipe from Burke's Enquiry into . . . the Sublime and the Beautiful. Burke's list of causes of the sublime foretells Poe's detail: general privations, depth and height for the idea of vastness, rough and vertical surfaces, minuteness repeated, buildings dark in daytime and light at night, intermittent light and sound, intolerable stench. Burke assigns the sublime a medical function--too continually relaxed a state for muscles and nerves produces melancholy and dejection, and these encumbrances can be cleared by non- noxious terror, which causes the same violent motions of the nerves as pain. Poe's narrator needs exactly this prescription: "There was an iciness, a sinking, a sickening or the heart--an unredeemed dreariness of thought which no goading of the imagination could torture into aught of the sublime." And his experience goads him from torpor back into sensation" (51).
Google Search: goth sublime poe
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=goth+sublime+poe
Gary Lindberg (1982). The Confidence Man in American Literature. New York: Oxford UP.
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PTypes Personality Types
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Edited by - ptypes on 31 Mar 2005 2:13:08 PM |
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Stormy
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United Kingdom
13286 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 2:18:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
He was mostly interested in the power of art and its effects rather than in an appreciation of beauty.
In what sense are we defining 'power'? If the 'power of art' is considered to be the power aesthetics and mood have in achieving goals and influencing others then I would say Poe is more 3ish; on the other hand, if the 'power of art' is understood to mean the truths that certain motifs and structures in the arts reflect about existence and the universe (including the human condition in the abstract) then I would say that Poe is more 5ish. Could you see Poe as a 5w4?
- Stormy [5/6] |
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ptypes
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5726 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 2:31:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stormy
In what sense are we defining 'power'?
From my study of Poe, I'd say that he's interested in the power of his art to manipulate and exploit the emotions of others to advance himself and his reputation.
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Stormy
Member
United Kingdom
13286 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 3:18:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ptypes
From my study of Poe, I'd say that he's interested in the power of his art to manipulate and exploit the emotions of others to advance himself and his reputation.
Ah...definitely 3w4. 
- Stormy [5/6] |
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ptypes
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5726 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 3:26:27 PM
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Gee, it's really something how being agreed with can change my opinion of someone.
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ptypes
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5726 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 3:45:17 PM
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"Throughout his life, Poe faced problems of failed honor and insanity—issues that paradoxically help to account for a literary authority that established precedents and patterns of literature in his home region—and even beyond the South itself. Whether fully conscious of his aims, Poe found ways to deal imaginatively with the inexpressible, the horrors that the mind can conjure, and the dark side of experience—without revealing any more of the inner torture than he wished to convey to his readership.
"His stories often exhibit a preoccupation with pride. A Poe narrator belligerently asserts the self-concern of who-I-am but encounters a senior or peer who mockingly challenges his pretensions to authenticity. Out of dread that the accusing tongue may speak the truth, the protagonist seeks vengeance. That purpose, no matter how cruel, seems honorable to him. Yet, after he commits the murderous act, remorse and self-condemnation immediately bring home a shame that validates the accuser's charge. The narrator confesses to the reader his own degradation. Such a sequence punctuated Poe's literary career. He translated his maddened cycle of triumph and pain in his art. Poe used his creative impulse as the means to expose the enormity of his own offenses, as he often exaggerated them to be. He did so without actually facing up to the "debaucheries," a vague term often utilized. Poe felt the full blast of humiliation that usually strikes down his narrators and renders them helpless, impotent, forlorn. He wanted that kind of resolution, as if he gained an affirming gratification from wretchedness."
http://www.nhc.rtp.nc.us:8080/ideasv61/wyattbrown.htm
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Edited by - ptypes on 31 Mar 2005 3:46:26 PM |
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ptypes
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5726 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 5:19:38 PM
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Stephen Peithman (xiii-ix) writes:
"Not all critics have been kind to Poe. For Yvor Winters, "the underlying defect in all of Poe's work" is "the absence of theme." W. C. Brownell suggests that "it is idle to endeavor to make a great writer of Poe because whatever his merits as a literary artist, his writings lack the elements not only of great, but of sound, literature. They lack substance" (American Prose Masters, Scribners, 1909; p.193).
"Yet Brownell bases his charge on the fact that Poe's stories "have no human interest because humanity did not in the least interest him"--the very point on which others have based their praise. Say Robert Scoles and Robert Kellogg, "Poe is rarely interested in expressing his own emotions, as such. The tales are noteworthy for their attitude of dramatic objectivity, a fact that should have discouraged autobiographical interpretation, although it has not done so. Poe is detached. . . . He was not out to exploit his own emotions. He was scarcely interested in them. He was out to exercise the power of the artist over the reader's attention, and thereby to master and manipulate the reader's response. The naive reader always assumes that he is in control of the words before him. The experienced reader of Poe knows better. Poe is in control." (The Nature of Narrative, Oxford, 1966; p.101).
Edgar Allan Poe. The Annotated Tales of Edgar Allan Poe. Ed. Stephen Peithman (1986). New York: Avenel.
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warrants outstanding
Member
1095 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 6:04:58 PM
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I agree that he is likely some "competency" coping triad (1,3,5) that wings to 4 (3w4,5w4). Most of the quotes seem very indicative of 5w4 to me, though some of 3w4. His work that I've read seems to have a 5-ish cast to it as well. The horrors of the mind and all. 4s ain't got nothing on those cats. 5w4s are quite possibly the darkest creatures.
Not to be disagreeable. He could very well be a 3w4. I definitely get a 5w4-ish "vibe" though. I'd have to study him further to be certain.
4w3 self pres (dauntless/reckless)
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Imdrunkandyourestillugly
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Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 7:14:30 PM
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"Such a sequence punctuated Poe's literary career. He translated his maddened cycle of triumph and pain in his art. . . . Poe felt the full blast of humiliation that usually strikes down his narrators and renders them helpless, impotent, forlorn. He wanted that kind of resolution, as if he gained an affirming gratification from wretchedness."
"Poe is detached. . . . He was not out to exploit his own emotions. He was scarcely interested in them."
So, which is it?
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warrants outstanding
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1095 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 8:43:58 PM
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Well, 5s can go quite mad. 3s end in narcissitic sociopathy. 4s end in self-hatred and other-hatred. 5s end in delirium. Helpless and impotent is also a 5 fear.
4w3 self pres (dauntless/reckless)
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Big Yellow Personality
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80 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 9:01:12 PM
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Interesting topic, ptypes. I wouldn't hazard a comment without reading a great deal about Poe and re-reading his works-- neither of which I'm going to have time to do.
I would like to make a comment about artists (and possibly 4's ) in general, however, in response to this:
"Most 4s would disown him, I think, if they became more aware of the extremely analytical and pragmatic approach Poe took to artistic creation. He was mostly interested in the power of art and its effects rather than in an appreciation of beauty."
I don't think that taking an analytical/pragmatic approach to making art is at all antithetical to being a 4. As a professional artist myself,(a 5w4 probably-- maybe a 4w5) and as a result,having probably far more extensive contact than most people with other artists, and certainly more experience watching artists work and talking with them about the process itself than most people have, I find the idea of works of art emerging out of some sort of frenzy of feeling and abandonment of reason to be very erroneous.
Most serious artists I am acquainted with know exactly what they are doing and have to apply all their knowledge and training in order to produce outstanding art. The results can at least in part be evaluated objectively --for instance, there are elements and principles of design which can explain a lot about the work. I myself could explain to you exactly what I am trying to achieve and why in any given piece I am working on, and give you a complete analysis of what's good about it/what's wrong with it/what I can't figure out.
This is not to say that there is no element of ineffable intuition or excitement involved-- but that sort of out-of the-blue inspiration has to do with the concepts and the ideas the artist comes up with, and the direction he decides to take with the piece, rather than the execution of the work, which requires skill and practice just as an athlete requires them to be at the top of his game. It's not magic-- though it can seem like it when a person is exceptionally talented in any field. I would argue that most talented and serious artists of whatever sort would tell you that when they are working, their feet are on the ground, and their minds are not in some sort of mysterious trance.
Certainly there are flamboyant, sometimes outrageous artists who micht like to push the idea that they are exotic creatures with mysterious conduits to the unknown. But even these,4's or not, I would argue must employ some level of analysis and pragmatism, must just WORK, if they are to really achieve anything worthwhile.
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ptypes
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5726 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 9:09:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Imdrunkandyourestillugly
So, which is it?
At this point I don't know enough about Poe's creative processes to be sure which of those dynamics predominates. But I lean to the second interpretation. The first may be more superficial and exaggerated.
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ptypes
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5726 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 9:14:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by warrants outstanding
Well, 5s can go quite mad. 3s end in narcissitic sociopathy.
The 3w2s, I believe. But I think that the pathology of the 3w4 goes more to the schizoidal. An example would be the "crack-up" of F. Scott Fitzgerald.
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ptypes
Member
5726 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 9:40:45 PM
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That's a very fine account BYP. I'll have to fall back on the "extremely analytical" in my argument.
Of course, there are many kinds of artists - not just 3w4s, 4w5s, and 5w4s. And all would use some amount of analysis.
But Poe seems to have been especially analytical, going so far as analyzing the psychology of the reader and analyzing and determining the specific effects he wished to elicit. He claims to have analyzed the causes of specific effects and cleverly devised contrivances to elicit those effects. One has the impression more of ingenuity than inspiration, more of artfulness than art.
Perhaps, also, many types of artists may not take as much of an intellectual approach to their art as do the 3w4s, 4w5s, and 5w4s.
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Edited by - ptypes on 31 Mar 2005 9:43:30 PM |
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Imdrunkandyourestillugly
Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2005 : 11:43:42 PM
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| He's not a 3 of any sort. |
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Singultus
Member
Australia
250 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2005 : 02:40:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Yellow Personality
I don't think that taking an analytical/pragmatic approach to making art is at all antithetical to being a 4. As a professional artist myself,(a 5w4 probably-- maybe a 4w5) and as a result,having probably far more extensive contact than most people with other artists, and certainly more experience watching artists work and talking with them about the process itself than most people have, I find the idea of works of art emerging out of some sort of frenzy of feeling and abandonment of reason to be very erroneous.
Most serious artists I am acquainted with know exactly what they are doing and have to apply all their knowledge and training in order to produce outstanding art. The results can at least in part be evaluated objectively --for instance, there are elements and principles of design which can explain a lot about the work. I myself could explain to you exactly what I am trying to achieve and why in any given piece I am working on, and give you a complete analysis of what's good about it/what's wrong with it/what I can't figure out.
This is not to say that there is no element of ineffable intuition or excitement involved-- but that sort of out-of the-blue inspiration has to do with the concepts and the ideas the artist comes up with, and the direction he decides to take with the piece, rather than the execution of the work, which requires skill and practice just as an athlete requires them to be at the top of his game. It's not magic-- though it can seem like it when a person is exceptionally talented in any field. I would argue that most talented and serious artists of whatever sort would tell you that when they are working, their feet are on the ground, and their minds are not in some sort of mysterious trance.
That's probably because as professional artists, you cannot afford to leave it to the possibility of occult (as in unknown) subconscious influences, given that you presumably need a consistant source of income.
In my own experience, my greatest pieces of art, being either visual or musical composition are not consciously formulated and take shape under circumstances which contradict those you described above.
The artist does not necessarily have to be a "conduit for mysterious forces". It would suffice to say that people are capable under circumstances to access non-prominent modes of attention and produce work considered to be brilliant.
I associate the point of absorbtion where one loses sense of ego as the aforementioned, however if you believe that most (if not all) great artists (if they can thusly be called such) produce great art via a more scienfic process, no doubt you wouldn't relate to the state anyhow.  |
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Singultus
Member
Australia
250 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2005 : 02:50:15 AM
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| Just wanted to add that I didn't mean to slight your occupation, it's just that I found your description of artist to be a lot like what I term 'technician'. |
Edited by - Singultus on 01 Apr 2005 02:55:13 AM |
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Big Yellow Personality
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80 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2005 : 07:20:29 AM
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Then you don't understand the point.
Very few people are capable of producing great works of art in the first place. BOTH technical skill AND worthy ideas and concepts are required. The first comes from familiarity and practice, to a point (I believe that aptitude or "talent" is inborn, wired in the brain, but like athletic ability, requires training and practice to reach its full potential. Another analog is the concept of "chops" for a musician).
The second, the inspiration, is a more nebulous concept. It draws upon each individual human being's unique sum total of experience, knowledge, wisdom,imagination, perspective.
If you think of great artists in any genre, I doubt you will find any whose work does not unite both. |
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Big Yellow Personality
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Posted - 01 Apr 2005 : 08:12:19 AM
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By the way, the quickest way to alienate a fellow artist is to insinuate that they aren't "real artists", but instead sell-outs or technicians. Perhaps the reason some of us can make a living at art is that what we produce is good enough to speak to people and move them to buy it.
It would be interesting if you would elaborate on your creative process. I don't disagree with anything you said about accessing subconscious material, contrary to your opinion about my lack of understanding . I just don't find rationality and use of the sub-conscious parts of the mind to be mutually exclusive when creating art. I can do both--- can't everyone? In my opinion, using all mental routes available provides the richest basis for creativity.
I suspect it would be useful if we explained more about how we work,
rather than making assumptions and judgments. |
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Singultus
Member
Australia
250 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2005 : 10:57:27 AM
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As I said earlier, I didn't mean to slight your occupation. I never meant to refer to you individually as anything, I'm merely dissenting what you've written based on conflicting experiences, which does not necessarily put either of us in the 'wrong' given that we've merely assessed what we've witnessed.
You may consider artists I deem to be artists as flamboyant, outrageous, or simply false, while I might consider artists who follow some sort of organised conscious process to be akin to technicians. I didn't refer to you personally, or your beliefs.
It's not really pertinent, but I'm not really refering to inspiration. If inspiration could be apprehended as a partial flip into less conscious modes of being, then this dissociation from ego would certainly classify as 'possession' by the less conscious facets of being.
Make of it whatever you like, this isn't a factual assertion and there's no rational way for me to present it as such. |
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ptypes
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5726 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2005 : 12:34:51 PM
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These are what I think are the motivational dispositions of the Inventive Type (3w4) (in other words, these are what I think are the traits of inventiveness): hope, idealism, ambition, assertiveness, competitiveness, wittiness, intelligence, originality, resourcefulness, analysis, ingenuity, contrivance, competence, industriousness, enterprise.
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Edited by - ptypes on 02 Apr 2005 12:17:59 PM |
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ptypes
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5726 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 11:48:45 AM
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The essence of Poe's inventiveness:
"On the one hand, then, Poe represents a world in which taste, common sense, convention, sensibility--the integrating assumptions and habits--have either broken down or lost credit. On the other hand, he shows a radical propensity to analyze. The loss of authority in the old modes of conduct encourages, even forces, the habit of analysis, and this habit further dismembers the inherited world. Poe's situation as artist, in other words, is closely related to the conditions he projects in his tales, poems and criticism. That he takes the "New World" seriously is apparent in his constant demands for originality. Yet he cannot literally start again; there are too many models. "Originality" and "invention? come to mean, not a pristine relationship to raw experience, but a new attitude toward traditional forms, especially esthetic ones. Instead of mastering and adapting the conventions of his medium, the artist disassembles them, scrutinizes their workings, and rigs a new contrivance from the fragments. This seems to be Poe's meaning when he argues that the second element of Poesy is the attempt to satisfy the thirst for supernal beauty by "novel combinations, of those combinations which our predecessors, toiling in chase of the same phantom, have already set in order."
Lindberg, Gary (1982). "Poe's Credentials: The Confidence Man as New World Artist" in The Confidence Man in American Literature. New York: Oxford UP.
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ptypes
Member
5726 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 9:05:51 PM
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[b]Diddling - Considered as one of the exact sciences.
http://www.rrojasdatabank.net/poe/poe46.htm
Diddling, rightly considered, is a compound, of which the ingredients
are minuteness, interest, perseverance, ingenuity, audacity,
nonchalance, originality, impertinence, and grin.
Minuteness: -- Your diddler is minute. His operations are upon a
small scale. His business is retail, for cash, or approved paper at
sight. Should he ever be tempted into magnificent speculation, he
then, at once, loses his distinctive features, and becomes what we
term "financier." This latter word conveys the diddling idea in every
respect except that of magnitude. A diddler may thus be regarded as a
banker in petto -- a "financial operation," as a diddle at
Brobdignag. The one is to the other, as Homer to "Flaccus" -- as a
Mastodon to a mouse -- as the tail of a comet to that of a pig.
Interest: -- Your diddler is guided by self-interest. He scorns to
diddle for the mere sake of the diddle. He has an object in view- his
pocket -- and yours. He regards always the main chance. He looks to
Number One. You are Number Two, and must look to yourself.
Perseverance: -- Your diddler perseveres. He is not readily
discouraged. Should even the banks break, he cares nothing about it.
He steadily pursues his end, and
Ut canis a corio nunquam absterrebitur uncto. so he never lets go of
his game.
Ingenuity: -- Your diddler is ingenious. He has constructiveness
large. He understands plot. He invents and circumvents. Were he not
Alexander he would be Diogenes. Were he not a diddler, he would be a
maker of patent rat-traps or an angler for trout.
Audacity: -- Your diddler is audacious. -- He is a bold man. He
carries the war into Africa. He conquers all by assault. He would not
fear the daggers of Frey Herren. With a little more prudence dick
Turpin would have made a good diddler; with a trifle less blarney,
Daniel O'Connell; with a pound or two more brains Charles the
Twelfth.
Nonchalance: -- Your diddler is nonchalant. He is not at all nervous.
He never had any nerves. He is never seduced into a flurry. He is
never put out -- unless put out of doors. He is cool -- cool as a
cucumber. He is calm -- "calm as a smile from Lady Bury." He is easy-
easy as an old glove, or the damsels of ancient Baiae.
Originality: -- Your diddler is original -- conscientiously so. His
thoughts are his own. He would scorn to employ those of another. A
stale trick is his aversion. He would return a purse, I am sure, upon
discovering that he had obtained it by an unoriginal diddle.
Impertinence. -- Your diddler is impertinent. He swaggers. He sets
his arms a-kimbo. He thrusts. his hands in his trowsers' pockets. He
sneers in your face. He treads on your corns. He eats your dinner, he
drinks your wine, he borrows your money, he pulls your nose, he kicks
your poodle, and he kisses your wife.
Grin: -- Your true diddler winds up all with a grin. But this nobody
sees but himself. He grins when his daily work is done -- when his
allotted labors are accomplished -- at night in his own closet, and
altogether for his own private entertainment. He goes home. He locks
his door. He divests himself of his clothes. He puts out his candle.
He gets into bed. He places his head upon the pillow. All this done,
and your diddler grins. This is no hypothesis. It is a matter of
course. I reason a priori, and a diddle would be no diddle without a
grin.
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ptypes
Member
5726 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 9:24:53 PM
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"The pleasure which we derive from any display of human ingenuity is in the ratio of the approach to this species of reciprocity [between cause and effect]. In the construction of plot, for example, in fictitious literature, we should so arrange the incidents that we shall not be able to determine, of any one of them, whether it depends on any other one or upholds it. In this sense, of course, perfection of plot is really, or practically, unattainable - but only because it is a finite intelligence that constructs. The plots of God are perfect. The universe is a plot of God" (Poe, "Eureka").
http://www.mathpages.com/home/kmath522/kmath522.htm
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ptypes
Member
5726 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 9:50:03 PM
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An interesting connection made here between confession and narcissism.
"Delighting in torment is not only a staple of the Gothic genre, but also a correlative of confession. Poe's narrators enjoy a kind of covert confessing because it is a kind of self-torment.The concept of self-torment, particularly through the act of confession, is closely tied to the idea of narcissism. The very act of tormenting oneself shows at once a degree of self-obsession. By definition, to confess is to disclose information that has previously been kept only in one's own head. Logically, then, a poem that is characterized by a speaker's confession is a poem that is about himself. The relationship of self-torture and narcissism is well-defined in "The Tell-Tale Heart," in which, at the end of the story, the narrator pulls up the floorboards in front of the police to expose the corpse of the man whom he killed. Ironically, the object that drives the speaker to murder the old man is his eye, a homonym for the word "I." The underlying suggestion is that the "eye" is at the same time the symbol of the speaker's torment and of his own self-obsession. Narcissism is indeed prevalent in many of Poe's works both prose and poetry. Several of his poems, while they are written under the guise of being about particular women (such as "For Annie" and "Annabel Lee"), are only about the speaker. For instance, in "Annabel Lee," the woman about whom the poem is written is almost entirely absent from the poem, with the exception of her name. When the speaker describes her, it is in terms of himself. The first piece of information the reader learns about her is that she "lived with no other thought / Than to love and be loved by me." Later, the speaker describes her as "my darling, my darling, my life and my bride." The speaker's self-obsession is made even more apparent by the same device that exposes his guilt the repetition of the "ee" vowel in the end rhymes leaves the reader saying the word "me. "The pervasive narcissism in Poe's works is fundamentally important in making the connection between confession and creation. The self-obsession of the speakers, combined with the absence of the women in the poems, makes it apparent that the speakers are far more concerned with themselves than they are with the women they have killed. It is as if the speakers are making up for the silence of the dead women by inserting their own voices. Therefore, the absence of the women provides a certain poetic inspiration. This is what Poe means in "The Philosophy of Composition" when he writes, "the death of a beautiful woman is unquestionably the most poetical topic in the world, and equally is it beyond doubt that the lips best suited for such topic are those of a bereaved lover." The logical deduction from this statement is that a person is justified in killing his lover for the purposes of poetic inspiration. That is precisely what the speakers in "Annabel Lee" and "The Raven" have done. However, what Poe realized in writing these poems is that the speakers are in positions of tremendous power. A person who has killed his lover has the power to tell about it, but more importantly, he has the power to shape his story any way he chooses, and to reveal as much or as little as he desires. In other words, it is not the murder, but the act of confessing it that inspires poetic creation."
http://www.gradesaver.com/ClassicNotes/Titles/poepoems/essays/essay1.html
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Edited by - ptypes on 06 Apr 2005 9:52:15 PM |
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Singultus
Member
Australia
250 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2005 : 10:50:23 PM
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quote:
This is what Poe means in "The Philosophy of Composition" when he writes, "the death of a beautiful woman is unquestionably the most poetical topic in the world, and equally is it beyond doubt that the lips best suited for such topic are those of a bereaved lover." The logical deduction from this statement is that a person is justified in killing his lover for the purposes of poetic inspiration.
It seems like Nick Cave's song "where the wild roses grow" is another example. |
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Edgar Allan Poe's type
